Why does Kinky have no competitor?

[Ancalime]

Hey all,

First of all, my Dutch is not good enough to ask this question so I'll stick to English, if I'm allowed.

I've been in this, well, thing, for a while but I see that Kinky is like the almost only option. I was curious why? Is it really difficult, or not allowed to make a competitor site?
If it's illegal, how do they even get the payments then etc.?

 

[LPS]

Fair and relevant question Ancalime. Some weeks ago during the hack of the 'Kinky' site I also raised this question.
Maybe your skills (since mine ar not to be clear) for making a competitive site are sufficient, and this would be highly appreciated by all of us!

 

[veli]

When I go walking in the Netherlands I'll either consult Kinky or Sexjobs, so there's your competitor; mainly because it offers more options for swingers, gangbangs and such I suppose. In the end they are both owned by Midhold so the term competition needs be taken lightly.
It's similar in Belgium where Redlights (alas recently remodeled) is the dominating site.

I think one of the main reasons is that as an advertiser you don't want to spend a lot of time posting and reposting on dozens of pages. And the same goes for us of course. So the webpage that handles media and "ease of use" best comes out on top and usually stays there.
The other reason, at least in the Netherlands, is Midhold I suppose. It's a big company with a solid network: to try and set up a website that would dethrone them is more like taking on Albert Heijn than your local grocery store.

 

[2fawx]

Kinky has competitors, they're just not completely focused on the Dutch market and are often less known compared to Kinky, SJ. There's topescort.nl, kinkyescort.nl, escortnews.eu, tophookers.nl to name a few, though, these share the same database purely for SEO so each advertiser can have more potential to reach new clients.

Whether it's very effective is doubtful in my opinion, at least in the Netherlands... One of the reasons being is that both wandelaars and DVPs have pretty severe tunnel vision when it comes to trying out new things, but like I said before, they've become the de facto site to go to seek out paid sex in the Netherlands, and it's pretty hard to get rid of that norm.

Aside from that, while building a competing platform isn't necessarilly hard for a competent person, the biggest issue is pretty much marketing, where you have very limited mediums to market your product to others. Hell, these could perhaps be only 3: word of mouth, spam, or trying to connect with advertisers, brothels or other platforms. Which just takes time, money and energy to do, and don't guarantee a return... which ends up in basically an empty advertisement platform and a bit of a "chicken or the egg" problem, as wandelaars seek out DVPs, and DVPs search for potential new customers.

It's a shame Kinky and SJ hold a monopoly over the advertisement market in my opinion, as these two are pretty full of malicious 'advertisers' such as scammers and fakers, due to the lack of moderation... somewhere it's logical, since these are also one of the people to fill Kinky/SJ's pockets.

 

[Voormalig lid 4776]

Deernes.com
Sexjobs
Redlights
Afspraakjes
Prive-escort.be
Escortgirls.be
Deugnietjes.com
Girls4u.be

And the're all crap

 

[Balthazar]

Most people looking for girls of pleasure, know these two websites. It's hard to get close to their brand awareness. They have visitors, which makes it interesting for girls to advertise and they have ads of girls, which makes it interesting for visitors.

I think that's the only reason. The platforms itself aren't that outstanding. If you just start, you have no ads, which means that it's not interesting for men looking for girls and no visitors, which means that it's not interesting for girls to advertise. A bit of a "chicken egg"-situation.

 

[Ancalime]

While I do hear that "they are monopoly", I really also think they are both crap when it comes to ease of use or anything. I mean come on it's 2021 and "listing" sites are on another level. I don't mind going for a challenger website actually. Hell I can even create one, while considering the challenges.

Just that I don't agree with "beating Albert Heijn with your local grocery" idea. I mean you have to start somewhere and if you come up with a better product I don't think it should be difficult. Yet, again my biggest question is "how do you even legalize the financial part of it". Does anyone have an opinion on that?

 

[Balthazar]

While I do hear that "they are monopoly", I really also think they are both crap when it comes to ease of use or anything. I mean come on it's 2021 and "listing" sites are on another level. I don't mind going for a challenger website actually. Hell I can even create one, while considering the challenges.

Just that I don't agree with "beating Albert Heijn with your local grocery" idea. I mean you have to start somewhere and if you come up with a better product I don't think it should be difficult. Yet, again my biggest question is "how do you even legalize the financial part of it". Does anyone have an opinion on that?

Basically, what you're doing is legal. You're selling ads, that's it.

 

[Ancalime]

Basically, what you're doing is legal. You're selling ads, that's it.

But as far as I'm concerned, this is somehow "illegal prostitution" no?

 

[Balthazar]

But as far as I'm concerned, this is somehow "illegal prostitution" no?

If you want to act a 100% correct, you should check if they have a permission to prostitute and a KVK-inscription... But even SJ and Kinky didn't face any problems, although those websites do contain illegal prostitution ads.

 

[BarbieLover]

if you come up with a better product I don't think it should be difficult.

The thing is, the most important aspects of your 'product' would be the amount of (real) advertisements and the amount of visitors / exposure. Other aspects don't matter nearly as much, meaning that you're at a massive disadvantage when you're trying to compete with an established website (like kinky.nl) -- in economics, this is called a 'natural monopoly'.

 

[Ancalime]

The thing is, the most important aspects of your 'product' would be the amount of (real) advertisements and the amount of visitors / exposure.

And indeed we all know that the "fake ads" on Kinky is a BIG issue! So if you have something quality, even though it'll take some time in the beginning, you'll get in a better place in competition

 

[Voormalig lid 15844]

The competition also sucks, if you go on girls4you or one of their other sites you have to pay for things you can see on kinky for free like pictures of the hookers or their telephonenumber.

 

[Ancalime]

Guys you're at the edge of convincing me to build a new site. Keep going!

 

[Voormalig lid 15844]

That would be good!!!

 

[Ancalime]

I'd literally need someone for the financial clarification. Any volunteers?
I mean "how legal it is to earn money from such a website"...

 

[Voormalig lid 15844]

I think perfectly legal. Why should it not be legal?

 

[Ancalime]

I think perfectly legal. Why should it not be legal?

As I stated above, you're somehow "helping illegal prostitution" so...

 

[Voormalig lid 15844]

O i see but not all prostitution is illegal...

 

[Ancalime]

O i see but not all prostitution is illegal...

Then again, I'd love to be safe, thus my questions...
But as someone mentioned, "Midhold B.V." is what owns Kinky apparently and they can get away with that so... I think it should be fine.

 

[Voormalig lid 15844]

I guess Midhold can not know wich one is legal and wich one is not. There is almost no way you can check that out.
For me i would not go to an illegal hookers but i have no idea how to figure out if they are legal or not.

 

[Voormalig lid 2793]

Guys you're at the edge of convincing me to build a new site. Keep going!

If you would build a site with verified adds (rule out fake adds) you would have a unique selling point. Question is: how to do that?

 

[Balthazar]

I guess Midhold can not know wich one is legal and wich one is not. There is almost no way you can check that out.
For me i would not go to an illegal hookers but i have no idea how to figure out if they are legal or not.

You could do some checks, for example check the KVK and the permission, but than 99% of all advertisers on SJ and Kinky won't be able to place an ad at your website.

 

[Motormaf]

Hele zooi bij elkaar.

And there all crap

So true.

 

[Lament]

An interesting proposition, from a legal perspective I see no reason why this would be a problem. It might be difficult to get the right infrastructure from 'moral perspective': hosting companies are reluctant to bring this to them, however this should not be impossible to solve. You'd need some upfront investments for development and hosting and a solid plan to earn those back in a reasonable timeframe. I'd be interested to explore this.

 

[2fawx]

Midhold is registered as an "advertisement selling" website. To my knowledge, selling ads isn't illegal, though you can bet law enforcement is aware of Midhold's portfolio.

Building a completely new platform is ambitious (and certainly needed in the Dutch market), but I wouldn't underestimate it.
Many banks have a pretty conservative stance when it comes to doing business with sex work related entities due to the stigma of human trafficking and rape hanging around it (it's why big porn whales such as MindGeek haven't and will never go IPO, as it's considered sin stocks by many), so good luck finding a bank that wants to deal with you.

Aside from that, law enforcement will certainly keep their eyes on you and likely try to work together to combat human trafficking (contrary to popular belief, not every prostitute is a nymphomaniac).

Along with that comes content moderation: you'll have to make sure no illegal media such as child pornography or stolen photo's get on your platform. While these can be certainly mitigated with existing technology, they won't and will never be 100% accurate (and perhaps even coming into a legal grey area, as many search platforms aren't really happy with third parties using their product to get a profit for themselves).

Not to mention, if you start small... the above can really limit the advertisers that can go onto your site. I'm even willing to bet fake advertisers are a significant contributor to Kinky's profit. In other words: you just end up with the "chicken & egg" problem.

If you do plan to go through with this, your selling point really has to be something prostitutes can take advantage of and where wandelaars can take advantage of. Naturally, that would be lower prices for advertising and filtering awful scammers and fake advertisements, though, always keep in mind that old habits die hard, and trying to migrate users to something new and unknown is quite a challenge.

 

[Balthazar]

I agree with your post. @2fawx

Especially: old habits, die hard. It will be difficult to get male visitors, looking for girls of pleasure to a new platform. And for girls it's not interesting to advertise if there are not that much visitors on the platform.

That's why a lot of these platforms start(ed) with a lot of fake ads. To attract attentions. No visitor is interested in a platform with 2 ads of girls hours driving away from where the visitor is living.

I think that's the hardest thing. Another problem is that the more control on unregistered girls of pleasure, fake ads, etc. the less ads will be bought.

 

[HotCEO]

Hey all,

First of all, my Dutch is not good enough to ask this question so I'll stick to English, if I'm allowed.

I've been in this, well, thing, for a while but I see that Kinky is like the almost only option. I was curious why? Is it really difficult, or not allowed to make a competitor site?
If it's illegal, how do they even get the payments then etc.?

Why you need multiple websites if you have 1 (or 2) good ones? Kinky works like a charm for me.

 

[BigBenny]

I'd literally need someone for the financial clarification. Any volunteers?
I mean "how legal it is to earn money from such a website"...

Making money from selling advertisements on the internet is not illegal, but that is a naive view and is not the real issue.

In the Netherlands prostitution is a somewhat regulated profession, but prostitution by someone older than 18 years old is not illegal. However, there are additional conditions related to your nationality/citizenship (European Union or not); whether you can work as an employee in a brothel or not; if you are not an employee you have to register as a self-employed worker; or you can have an "in-between" position (neither employee nor self-employed) if you comply with the rules of the "voorwaardenpakket". See for more details: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/binari...and/werken-in-de-prostitutie-in-nederland.pdf

Let's call people who are not in one of the above three regulated categories "unregulated prostitutes".

Is working as an unregulated prostitute illegal? In a broad sense, yes, but it is more of an administrative illegality, rather than a criminal illegality. It is more or less the same as people having a second job for which they don't pay taxes or social security and which is traded on grey or black markets. Think of your Polish cleaning lady or some handyman who does some small repairs in the weekend or in the evening and gets paid cash.

Is selling advertisements for unregulated prostitution illegal? Again, in a broad sense, it is. But that would then be as an accessory to assisting unregulated activities. Coincidentally that activity is prostitution, but that is entirely irrelevant. No unregulated prostitute will be fined or jailed for being a prostitute. She will get an administrative fine for failing to register herself as a self-employed worker, not paying taxes and not paying social security dues. I am not aware whether being an accessory to such matters is ever prosecuted, or if it is even possible. If you want to know, get some legal opinion from a Dutch lawyer.

A more serious issue however, is that of "pimping". A pimp is anyone who benefits from someone else's prostitution, whether regulated or unregulated. Only properly licensed brothels can escape this situation. Renting "work" rooms for prostitutes is a bit of a greyish area, but probably regulated at the city level. Getting money from publishing advertisements for prostitution might be in that same grey area, but I can remember no recent court cases in that respect. At worst, it is something the Police does not have the urgency to spend any time or resources on. At best, it is not considered pimping.

 

[Ancalime]

Why you need multiple websites if you have 1 (or 2) good ones? Kinky works like a charm for me.

Well it is "OK" at best, I'd say as someone with web development experience.
I believe the infrastructure is pretty old and as we all understood recently, vulnerable to a mediocre hack.
The UI looks so 2000s. Listing sites have come a good way since then.

And as many here suggested, fake ads is horrible. I've been doing "paid sex" for around a year now and already for 4-5 times I experienced fake ladies that had absolutely nothing to do with the photos.